As our servers seem to dwindle in number, I have noted that the survival server still can create some drama within the community, and for good reason, in my opinion. The system is inevitably broken, promoting hostility and secrecy rather than communication and helpfulness, keeping many players from wanting to play (there are many who have spoken out about this, as well as those who remain quiet).
Currently, there's only one group really playing on the Survival Server, mine. All the others have simply dwindled, as they feel there's no real reason to play since the server is competitive, and we're, bluntly, advanced already, having gotten an elytra in a day, showing off constantly. Humility was never given from us, and this likely drove a lot of the playerbase away.
That's why I propose a solution: let's change the survival server's ideology. This doesn't require a complete restart of the server again, merely a change of focus:
Firstly, no griefing or raiding allowed. This is at the discretion of the moderators i.e. a dirt hut being torn down for a palace may not be considered griefing. This is a major change from what we currently do, and would remove the competition that (in my opinion) was abhorred by a lot of our members. If we really need ProtectionStones, have a Moderator give the protected area to the person. We shouldn't need them.
Second, remove the economy entirely. Honestly, there's no need for this. I feel as if the shops add some sort of non-vanilla aspect to the game. And it's entirely exploitable.
In essence, the 1.9 Survival Server has been quite peaceful (albeit only because thrash and I are regular contenders, and we've vowed to try to avoid conflict as much as possible). I believe the rules should reflect our change in behavior. In the past, we were chaotic and wanted to try it out. There were many problems, which likely led to the loss of members due to all the drama presented. We shouldn't have a mirror image of our last survival world. Instead, I believe we should make the server anti-griefing and anti-raiding, promoting building ability and cooperation.
This is collectively is what made many stop playing. I commend you for actually using the forums, and for being able to see this yourself.
I feel what that we have already "tried and tested" the PvE method, and perhaps we should search for other possibilities. Off the top of my head, perhaps there is some kind of PvE element we can install in the form of a mod or plugin that will keep the game "suppressed" so that high-level items aren't that easily obtainable, perhaps we could combine this with the whole server being one group, working towards the same goal. Perhaps the goal should be something like building something grand, such as a castle that will house all the members or something similar, a dwarf city comes to mind. When endgame is reached, we save the map and start again. Before we start anew, we have a discussion about making goals for ourself.
The Technic team have also made a mod pack named Blightfall, where you are one of 6 (?) teams that work to rescue a ruined planet. Perhaps this is something we can do?
You purpose solutions that you say does not require a reset of survival, I think this is unavoidable and I think we need to think new. I purpose ideas loosely so that we can discuss, but please remember to write any discussion that happens on TS here so that I and others that are not on TS can participate.
-pusur
Quote from: pusur44017 on April 22, 2016, 04:32:46 PM
You purpose solutions that you say does not require a reset of survival, I think this is unavoidable and I think we need to think new. I purpose ideas loosely so that we can discuss, but please remember to write any discussion that happens on TS here so that I and others that are not on TS can participate.
-pusur
Or at least paraphrase or notations.
One thing talking with Krawkyz is that this has the potential to be a third server more private than the public survival server. If it's different enough from survival, we have the hosting space to make it so.
This change is definitely needed, because I joined in the server about 6 hours late, so I haven't even needed to make a crafting table yet. I got an Elytra before anything else, because that's just what people where doing when I got on. When everyone was doing everything while I was off, I always felt left out. Which entirely could be my fault, and it probably is.
I don't believe in any fashion modded servers are the way to go: we've never really had a strong modding-focused community. Tekkit died rather quickly.
So far, I really haven't seen any discussion on the ideas presented, other than the "tried and tested" comment. On that note, the server did well in a PvE environment, relative to the current system.
I believe it makes sense to switch it back to that system of PvE, since: one, a good amount of our players seem to want to remove the raiding/pvp aspect of survival, and, two, like you said, it worked, fixing what isn't broken.
However, I personally would not like a restart. [spoiler]If a large amount really feel it's necessary, perhaps make a private vanilla whitelist server for those who want to continue on this current map, and a public one for those who want to start anew (likely without thrash or I in this sense).[/spoiler]
Is anybody objecting to this change, though? Do we think we should have a more PvE oriented server? What are people's ideas?
I think the reason tekkit dies out quickly is because of how fast you reach endgame.
I wouldn't mind a PvE server, however I think we need a "policy" of sorts for when we reach endgame, where we dictate when to reset the map. I also think we should otherwise discuss how we do this before executing the plan, what aspects to remove or add, and maybe some new rules?
I still stay strong on resetting the map because of the position we have reached.
You mentioned the economy being exploitative. I agree on this, perhaps a way to level this out is to not have any admin shops. That way all economy is based on the players. Removing the money is no point because you will just trade with items instead
We need discussion on this, me and Kraw cannot be the only ones with input on how we are going to do this.
I still feel we should keep open to a new game mechanic. The reason we have PvP is because PvE dwindled, but perhaps we should just have reset the map, I don't know, but this is why I said "tried and tested". If we rule out mods, my idea is the whole server being forced to be one group, and before we start we discuss what we want to archive and one of them has to be one big build that has to house all the players and what you need on a survival play. and we reset when we have archived the goals. This shouldn't require any special set up other than making our own objectives and resetting the map.
-pusur
*cough* hardcore *cough*
I play on survival to play minecraft with you guys, so alienating even a single one of you kinda gets rid of the point for me.
Kraw and Thrash (probably some more), wouldn't play on a server restart. Honestly, They will be ahead of the game by miles unless we restart, and provide more content (modded survival). Even if both of them did play on a server restart they would probably still be rocketing ahead of everybody.
It has been aggressively exclaimed that a majority of people would not play on modded survival. Modded survival may not be stable, but everyone knows how much fun tekkit was. Most people wouldn't want to play it until they get bored of minecraft, and by then they might be burned out of minecraft. My personal vote goes to modded survival.
It's been a very long time since I played on the survival server, but I thought I'd share my thoughts on this anyways.
I for one am excited to hear that the survival server might become a less competitive, and more peaceful place. As for other changes... I don't think modded minecraft is the way to go, and that's coming from someone who loves modded minecraft. When you change the survival server to a modded server, you have the potential to alienate players who aren't... let's call it "Hardcore Insomniac Members", people who get on every now and then and just want to play on a server with some other people on it. Not only that, but certain players may just dislike modded minecraft, and not want to join that server, which might even stop part of the... (I need a better name for it) "Hardcore Insomniac Members" of playing in the survival server.
Another debate here was the PvE/PvP debate, I feel like it should still be PvP, but in a peaceful way... hell, if there's an argument, instead of arguing and creating drama, just keep calm and call an admin, and if you really want to fight, settle it in a gladiatorial fight for all I care :D (And if drama and arguing makes it's comeback, we can always turn PvP off)
Quote from: pusur44017 on April 22, 2016, 04:32:46 PM
the whole server being one group, working towards the same goal. Perhaps the goal should be something like building something grand, such as a castle that will house all the members or something similar, a dwarf city comes to mind.
I personally like the idea of the entire server working towards a certain goal a lot, building a big community ....thing/building, a city or castle for example, but I'm sure there are many more possibilities!
As a side-note, I don't believe the entire server should be considered 1 group, there can still be some competitiveness between groups of players, but in a less aggressive manner compared to the past. Perhaps more in a creative manner similar to the build-offs, where the person who's contribution is considered the most valuable could get a "trophy" to hang on their wall or something, hell, maybe even a statue or title :)
Quote from: pusur44017 on April 22, 2016, 04:32:46 PM
When endgame is reached, we save the map and start again. Before we start anew, we have a discussion about making goals for ourself.
I don't think the map needs to be restarted for this to happen, but at some point the goals could be changed up.
Here's another idea; How about Player-created dungeons? Every player gets to create a dungeon which the other players can attempt to beat, this could include Parkour, Monsters, Puzzles, whatever else you can think up!
That's about it for my thoughts on this discussion, so what do ya think?
Quote from: Glenn on April 24, 2016, 04:23:51 PM
Perhaps more in a creative manner similar to the build-offs, where the person who's contribution is considered the most valuable could get a "trophy" to hang on their wall or something, hell, maybe even a statue or title :)
Here's another idea; How about Player-created dungeons? Every player gets to create a dungeon which the other players can attempt to beat, this could include Parkour, Monsters, Puzzles, whatever else you can think up!
Not to be rude, but you are just describing creative. A build-off in survival just end up being a competition of resources. player-created dungeons, with parkour,
monsters, and puzzles require things that are not accessible in survival.
Don't get me wrong modded survival wouldn't replace regular survival.
Quote from: Jahona on April 22, 2016, 06:48:56 PM
This has the potential to be a third server more private than the public survival server. If it's different enough from survival, we have the hosting space to make it so.
Quote from: Drakon on April 24, 2016, 04:48:38 PM
A build-off in survival just end up being a competition of resources.
Hey, wait a minute! I never said it'd be a build-off!
To add some kind of competitiveness, you could award some kind of medal similarly to the build-offs, but that's completely next to the point here, the main goal would be working together and creating something awesome!
Quote from: Drakon on April 24, 2016, 04:48:38 PM
player-created dungeons, with parkour, monsters, and puzzles require things that are not accessible in survival.
Not necessarily, I'm sure you could make an interesting dungeon or whatever you'd want to call it without the need of creative mode, it just requires you to be creative yourself!
Quote from: Drakon on April 24, 2016, 04:48:38 PM
Don't get me wrong modded survival wouldn't replace regular survival.
Quote from: Jahona on April 22, 2016, 06:48:56 PM
This has the potential to be a third server more private than the public survival server. If it's different enough from survival, we have the hosting space to make it so.
So then you'd split the community in two, right? I'd say that's pretty counter-productive.
Quote from: Drakon on April 24, 2016, 04:48:38 PM
you are just describing creative
Okay, here's the problem: the endgame of basic survival minecraft is boring, you do everything there is to do, and that's it, the end, server dies out. So, the point here (in my eyes) is to find/create a new endgame, to find a way to keep the servers populated, to keep the community engaged, and yes, a modded server could keep a select few interested for a select period of time, but that's not a solution I want to settle with! I want to find a way to keep as many people as possible engaged for as long as possible, which is why I think creating something big together might be a good idea!
(The Dungeon idea was more of a sidenote that could be fun by the way, not an actual solution to the problem at hand)
Another idea I had is that possibly we could do small teams, you already have three teams of two (Kraw + Thrash, Sif + Butler, Pusur + Bren), their are obviously more in their groups, but they are pretty much the leaders of those groups. We could keep the competitive aspect by making these 'group leaders' into 'clan leaders' and making the survival map a battleground over who can conquer the others. Making and capturing forts, possibly using Glenn's dungeon idea. We could have the main bases of each 'clan' protected so that way no one is ever fully out of the game. If there were possibly a plugin that keeps track of deaths that can be reset we can use that as a way to tell whether a battle is over (aka. first team to 10 deaths loses). When not in battle the clans would trade with each other for resources, and if you get rid of the currency system then would only trade goods.
All of the people that aren't leaders could get recruited by the clans as subordinates to help fight battles. Possibly they could go independent and have non-protected main bases, so when their base gets captured they become part of the clan that destroyed their fort.
I like the concept.
Quote from: Glenn on April 24, 2016, 04:23:51 PM
As a side-note, I don't believe the entire server should be considered 1 group, there can still be some competitiveness between groups of players, but in a less aggressive manner compared to the past. Perhaps more in a creative manner similar to the build-offs, where the person who's contribution is considered the most valuable could get a "trophy" to hang on their wall or something, hell, maybe even a statue or title :)
The part about needing some other element than building is true, but I don't think you can control competitiveness, therefore PvE is a good alternative in my mind. I think we should look towards a
plugin not mod that isn't too intrusive and will add more "E". My thought with the one big group is that I think we will turn out great builds every so often that we can put on youtube/PMC, whatever to generate publicity about us and perhaps if it is successful, this new concept we created.
Also, Beginning -> endgame = Awesome build to advertize, and then New beginning -> endgame = New awesome build to advertize
Endgame being finished our goals. To some degree we can also dictate difficulty here.
Quote from: Drakon on April 24, 2016, 05:35:24 PM
Another idea I had is that possibly we could do small teams
Well, Bren is out, and I don't like this type of game. I feel this is the opposite direction of what we want, and it requires me to be on a said time, and I can't commit to that. The problem with this type of game is that we all know each other so it will create friction, there is no "not personal".
You also raise concerns that even if kraw and thrash agree to resetting the server, they will soon be ahead of everybody. My solution solves this because any work they put in benefits everybody.
Quote from: Charon on April 24, 2016, 06:25:11 PM
I like the concept.
Which??
Very good discussion on this now.
I don't know if this will work, but I do think it's worth finding out. If this is something people want we need to discuss some rules, but first things first, is this something a fair deal of people would like to try to do?
-pusur
Although I do like the sound of Drakon's idea, it probably won't work too well, firstly it requires many players to be on at the same time, which may not happen too often. Secondly, this is probably hard to set up (and maintain). And lastly this'd possibly create more Drama which, as pusur noted, is counterproductive!
Quote from: pusur44017 on April 25, 2016, 11:20:24 AM
it requires me to be on a said time, and I can't commit to that.
On a personal note I agree here, neither I, not pusur or other non-Americans will be on at the times these battles would happen, which alienates part of the community!
In a way I do think there may be something to this idea though... I suppose no-one here has heard of "Mianite"?
It's a community server where a (fairly small) group of youtubers play on a server together and all choose to become part of a certain faction. There are three factions in this world, followers of Dianite (God of Evil), followers of Mianite (God of Good) and followers of Ianite (God of Ballance). The different factions tend to live peacefully together, but every now and then they plan pranks on eachother, these pranks are mostly fairly innocent and don't require too much work to be repaired (for example turning a bridge upside down), but the person who gets pranked takes revenge on the person who pranked him. Every now and then they organise trials when they believe someone went too far, and everyone (except the accused) gets to vote on whether or not the accused should be punished, if the answer is yes, then a penalty can be discussed. They also organise purges (almost) every weekend, in which players fight to the death with certain rules (for example, only wooden swords, no bow, no armor, no potions, no golden apples), the person who kills the most other players that purge wins it, and gains a trophy.
(The server also includes a narrative, the gods every now and then send them on quests, ask them to build them a temple, and so on... as a reward, buildings or other things may appear)
I'm not saying this is something we should/could implement, but perhaps we could take some inspiration from some of it's aspects!
Quote from: Glenn on April 25, 2016, 11:58:10 AM
(The server also includes a narrative, the gods every now and then send them on quests, ask them to build them a temple, and so on... as a reward, buildings or other things may appear)
Your idea has the same problems as drakons, this will escalate, create friction and so on, and it will to some degree require ontime a particular time of day. What is interesting, however, is what I quoted above. To help delay endgame to the point where via a combination of big goals and some kind of increased resistance, we archive a meaningful game. Perhaps we could entrust Darth, or some volunteer that should not be part of the actual players to make some kind of story line, where perhaps some part of our build will get blown up, or a gang of master thieves will steal a healthy amount of our goods, but also quests that will enable us to earn something we greatly need. Some of this might require more preparation than others, a quest might need some buildings and doing this all the time can be tiring, but the trick for the person(s) doing this is to variate on low preparation events and high.
How does this sound?
-pusur
Well, I can only go with the tradition argument here:
In essence, a lot of proposed solutions require heavily on plugins to enforce the system. I feel any "factions" servers will only cause more PvP and more drama, etc. Other proposed ideas cannot be enforced in a public server (from my standpoint). While we should definitely be proposing ideas, we should also propose the way to incorporate those ideas.
I see modded servers being proposed, and I say: there are extensive reasons why mods are not an option:
1. Modded Servers tend to be very unstable. Tekkit crashed extremely frequently and required constant upkeep.
2. Modded Servers alienate the playerbase. People who don't want mods/to download them are fresh out of luck, while vanilla/close to vanilla often includes everyone.
3. Modded Servers have a small shelf-life. Endgame is relatively easy to reach in most modded servers, especially due to the exploit-filled experiences (Mystcraft made tekkit a breeze).
I also dislike the argument of delaying endgame in any fashion. People don't play Minecraft similar to Terraria, where your goal is to get the best gear as possible. People play Minecraft to create what they want: Thor is building a castle; thrash and I are building farms and forts. Others are pushed to creative since the griefing nature of survival server causes their builds to be destroyed (e.g. Noku).
Storylines were proposed last survival, and just won't work. It's impossible to enforce.
Following with Glenn's comment, instead of focusing on the Gods server, why not shape ours on another successful server, HermitCraft? They are a vanilla server that operates peacefully: griefing and raiding are forbidden. We don't usually use vanilla, so we can modify that a bit with our current plugins (though HorseCraftables seems to be a bit superfluous).
Quote from: Krawkyz on April 25, 2016, 01:49:19 PM
I also dislike the argument of delaying endgame in any fashion. People don't play Minecraft similar to Terraria, where your goal is to get the best gear as possible. People play Minecraft to create what they want: Thor is building a castle; thrash and I are building farms and forts. Others are pushed to creative since the griefing nature of survival server causes their builds to be destroyed (e.g. Noku).
I'd agree with Kraw on the endgame argument. Minecraft was create for building anything and everything you want to build. The point of endgame in Minecraft in 1.9 is almost impossible at this point because with the new update you can now refight the dragon, Find endless amount of elytra. Endgame is almost impossible with the amount of times anything can be refought or found. So endgame really cant be argued atm.
I feel like having a giant group survival server could work for our server. It worked for many youtuber groups, one i like to use is the MindCrack group they all build and work together have fun and play as a team, not hiding from people and fighting all the time like we did last server. Im not saying I was innocent last survival I did start alot of problem and i dont want that again for this server. I believe if we do make this survival as a giant groupanother way of "spicing" that up are pranks, or giant group builds and stuff like that.
Quotewhy not shape ours on another successful server, HermitCraft? They are a vanilla server that operates peacefully: griefing and raiding are forbidden. We don't usually use vanilla, so we can modify that a bit with our current plugins
Instead of extending the shelf life of survival with dungeons I think adding more player interaction (without pvp) is a easy way to continue getting people interested with another pier 17 shopping area or ideas like simple fun pranks to poke fun at one another, for example maybe making a pixel art of sherk in the walls of our query.
To clarify my thoughts a little further:
Quote from: Hazestorm15/Krawkyz on April 25, 2016, 02:06:49 PM
I also dislike the argument of delaying endgame in any fashion.
I also don't think the pacing of the game should be adjusted, I just think it'd be good to find a way to keep people interested after they achieve what I'd call "endgame"
Quote from: Hazestorm15 on April 25, 2016, 02:06:49 PM
The point of endgame in Minecraft in 1.9 is almost impossible at this point because with the new update you can now refight the dragon, Find endless amount of elytra. Endgame is almost impossible with the amount of times anything can be refought or found. So endgame really cant be argued atm.
I disagree, Once you have beaten every boss and are able to obtain any item, that is in my eyes "endgame".
Sure, there are still a lot of things you can do, like create all kinds of buildings and beat the bosses again, but at that point players will start to lose interest because this "endgame" is achieved.
What I'm aiming for here, is to simply find a way to
keep players engaged after "endgame" is achieved, something that
gives everyone a new goal to work towards (no-one should be forced to complete this goal, if they prefer to do something else, that's all fair and square as well!).
Quote from: Glenn on April 25, 2016, 02:39:31 PM
I disagree, Once you have beaten every boss and are able to obtain any item, that is in my eyes "endgame".
Sure, there are still a lot of things you can do, like create all kinds of buildings and beat the bosses again, but at that point players will start to lose interest because this "endgame" is achieved.
What I'm aiming for here, is to simply find a way to keep players engaged after "endgame" is achieved, something that gives everyone a new goal to work towards (no-one should be forced to complete this goal, if they prefer to do something else, that's all fair and square as well!).
but if we modd survival it would/could end up like another type of tekkit server in my eyes. Like end game really isn't what this topic was about it was trying to go back to how things were and hopefully work together as a group. Or thats just in my eyes
Quote from: Hazestorm15 on April 25, 2016, 02:53:17 PM
but if we modd survival it would/could end up like another type of tekkit server in my eyes. Like end game really isn't what this topic was about it was trying to go back to how things were and hopefully work together as a group. Or thats just in my eyes
Oh, I'm not voting for a modded server at all, Drakon's the only person who's expressed to be interested in that so far.
This thread started with Kraw announcing he was wanted to change the server's ideology. The thread then continued to look for solutions to switch up the survival server, since
Quote from: Krawkyz on April 22, 2016, 12:48:45 PM
our servers seem to dwindle in number
Quote from: Glenn on April 25, 2016, 02:39:31 PM
What I'm aiming for here, is to simply find a way to keep players engaged after "endgame" is achieved, something that gives everyone a new goal to work towards (no-one should be forced to complete this goal, if they prefer to do something else, that's all fair and square as well!).
This is what I am trying to do with trying to extend endgame, but people doesn't want that, which is fine.
To be clear this is my idea:
1. Large group working towards a goal that includes some kind of grand build. We have a lot of good builders and good workers this should work well
2. As people does not want an extension of the game, no game altering plugins required.
3. In order to see if this works, the optimal situation would be a reset, but if we go for this, we need to discuss a lot of things first, and even then, nobody is saying we will have an immediate shut down of the current map.
4. This will be a PvE environment.
5. We need a large group for this to work successfully so we should encourage everyone to join the group.
If we go for this we need ideas on how to make incentives for this!6. Endgame is something that we will reach no matter what we do. This idea makes it so that we can reset and continue as we feel like it.
We might need some special rules, and we need to set goals. This idea is sort of structured now. Nothing is set in stone and input is very welcome, but could people please comment if this is something they would like to try out? I'm not saying end all ideas, but if we can get people to say, we want to try this, we can end one line of discussion and continue.
Kraw, you advocate for a very standard server. What is it exactly you would like? Could you elaborate?
-pusur
My Proposal:
1. No Griefing or Raiding allowed
2. Group how you wish
3. Almost no game-altering Plugins (Required Plugins like CoreProtect, etc)
4. PvP allowed if both parties consent
6. Extremely large gap between resets
This structure is similar to what we had previously before the current system was implemented.
5. Kraw is god of server and nobody can object.
Quote from: Krawkyz on April 25, 2016, 03:19:49 PM
My Proposal:
1. No Griefing or Raiding allowed
2. Group how you wish
3. Almost no game-altering Plugins (Required Plugins like CoreProtect, etc)
4. PvP allowed if both parties consent
6. Extremely large gap between resets
This structure is similar to what we had previously before the current system was implemented.
I feel like going back to this we'll be going in circles. There is a reason we turned to PvP. I could not find the original post, but I found an old one (http://www.insomniacservers.com/index.php/topic,1624.0.html (http://www.insomniacservers.com/index.php/topic,1624.0.html)) discussing possible ideas and in essence what is our problem is what butler expressed there:
"The issue is that we have nothing to fight, except each other. And if we fight each other, we fight too hard and destroy everything (and generally ruin the fun).
What we need is a challenge that will make the game exceptionally tough, and force the players to band together to survive."
People does not want anything very game altering. I think if done correctly my idea can make tough goals that the whole server should work together to solve.
-pusur
Quote from: pusur44017 on April 25, 2016, 03:42:15 PM
I feel like going back to this we'll be going in circles. There is a reason we turned to PvP. I could not find the original post, but I found an old one (http://www.insomniacservers.com/index.php/topic,1624.0.html (http://www.insomniacservers.com/index.php/topic,1624.0.html)) discussing possible ideas and in essence what is our problem is what butler expressed there:
People did need a break from the PvE environment, but I feel after this amount of time, going back to the similar setup would be fine.
I agree with the switch from PVP to PVE; we've all reached a point where we've realized that working together is much more productive than fighting each other, and the continued existence of the PVP element does nothing but add unnecessary tension.
Personally I like what Pusur is proposing, as it seems to be pretty much what Kraw is proposing, plus server wide goals to keep people interested and give us all something to work on together. Shouldn't even require a restart if implemented correctly.
To me it seems like there are few dissenters. I believe we should, at the least, implement a peaceful PvE system immediately, and depending on the polls of server-wide goals, implement those at a later time.
TL;DR - give more specifics on plugins and setup when suggesting your preference
What does a peaceful PvE system look like? What does a modified end game look like? What plugins can achieve this, if any? What settings need to be changed on the current setup to achieve what is being proposed?
It becomes easier to visualise what the game will be like if you try to give some specifics and then fine tune them as feedback comes in. The devil is in the detail.
Griefing and killing may not be allowed for PvE, but making something against the rules does not stop it. If people can do something, then eventually someone will, and this is what causes drama. It is far better to block actions at a server level and avoid having to deal with rule-breakers and all the drama that creates.
My effort at a more PvE focused server:
- Nuke economy. Remove it completely and all plugins that generate money like MobRewards and GlobalMarket.
- Remove all server shops
- Add an item trading plugin. E.g. https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/weetrade-trading-plugin-1-8-x.6046/ (https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/weetrade-trading-plugin-1-8-x.6046/)
- Keep Protection Stones system for grief protection but ramp it up. Give everyone a set amount of free stones, e.g. 5. All big ones. Apply an upper limit to how many each player can place, e.g. 5 per person.
- Disable PVP for the entire world. Allow PVP in specific parts only, like an arena or something.
"PVP is disabled but someone poured a lava bucket on me!"
- Solution: Make players invincible everywhere.
"But if you can't die, its not PvE."
- Solution: Report it to an admin.
"I didn't see who did it and there is no evidence."
- Solution: Prevent people using lava buckets.
"No lava? That sucks! I need lava for my mountain fortress build!"
- Solution: Well fuck.
This idea already has holes in it. That's Minecraft. It is impossible to achieve balance, avoid drama and play it the way you want to.
While a more PvE focused system could minimise clashes between people, it could also make it lot more boring. Drama might be the immediate reason that previous players left, but if they were enjoying the game enough they might have stuck it out. If someone left and continued playing Minecraft somewhere else, then fine, the drama was a major factor. But if they stopped playing Minecraft completely then most likely they had their fill of the game and a bit of drama was just the tipping point.
So a change now might not improve anything.
My idea:
-Shed Auto Message (no need to have something telling newbies that they need to lock and protect since it's PvE), All economy plugins and PS
-Do we need worldborder? I'd like it gone.
-Still need lock plugins, but since this is a co-op, nobody can have a chest that is locked for any members in the group (We still need to have lock so no new players steal) The only things that are Private is armour and crafted tools and will have to be put in an enderchest. Since we have essentials, it's possible to check this.
-Need essentials and coreprotect.
-Given the possibilty for a very large build I suggest unlimited homes.
-Intentional grief = immediate ban with appeal on forums. intentional kill = 1 hour cool down period for the killer. (tempban)
We don't need to add anything in terms of plugins, the only rule we haven't had before is the one about what is private. This should not be any difficult to do. The goals I am talking about is something we agree about between ourselves, in a seperate thread before each world we being. (How long a world will last not established)
I have nothing against issuing an immediate PvE playstyle. May I suggest we vote about my idea? In general it seems quite a lot of you are positive about this and we should see if enough of you would like to try this so we can actually nail down something definitive. I will give you 2 days to vote over this, I will only count those who actually say they vote this or that. Not answering is not considered a no!
I vote yes
-pusur
My vote in this case is a yes.
In response to Bren, here's the plugin list I posit:
Essentials, CoreProtect, CraftIRC, Multiverse, important plugins for server to run. Vault, PEX, WorldGuard, Backup, etc.
No ProtectionStones, instead use GriefPrevention (https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/griefprevention.1884/) (with config allowed using buttons/levers. Remove the anti-spam and anti-grief in wilderness.) /softmute is beautiful
Also, yes, a change might not cause anything. However, just because it won't change anything doesn't mean it is not necessary. I can, if you want, PM you a list of people who are active on the servers and don't play on survival because of the griefing nature of it.
My own suggested changes, slightly different from Pusur's;
Plugins Changes:
- Keep the current map (no reset)
- Turn off PVP except in select areas
-Either set up an arena, or do like Runescape and have a "wilderness" area where PVP is allowed. - Keep protection stones and chest locking (maybe rebalance price)
- Keep current rank limits on number of protection stones that a person can place
- Remove the buying feature at all shops so they can only be sold to.
-This would make the economy purely focused towards obtaining protection stones and chest locking. - Keep worldborder
-The reason we have it is because all chunks within the border are pre-generated. Having people generate new land outside the border can cause some serious lag issues. - Keep limits on number of homes the same, maybe even reduce slightly.
-Transportation infrastructure could be one of the "large goals" everyone could work towards together. - MAYBE- remove mob rewards
-Might not be as necessary with shop rebalancing - Give moderators necessary access to core protect
- Edit auto message to reflect changes.
Rule Changes;
- PVP of any kind only allowed in designated areas.
-This icludes lava bucketing and other crafty means of murder. Minimum 24 hr tempban for violators. - Grief disallowed.
-Intentional grief means immediate ban with appeal on the forums
-2 month statute of limitations on when grief can be punished. If a build is that important, it should probably be checked or protected with a protection stone.
-Dirt hut removal clause: if a temporary looking build appears to have not been used for a considerable amount of time, and the owner cannot be reached, players may obtain moderator permission to remove it. - Players may still have private land and chests with protection stones and lwc.
Summary:
Set server to PVE, disallow grief while still letting players have private land and chests if they so desire. Remove the ability to buy from shops and focus economy purely towards protection stones and chests. Having protection stones and locks still cost money will help prevent them from being overused.
-What I'm afraid of with keeping the map is that we will have a lot of resources, and this will be a bit pointless. This is valid for all of us.
-I would absolutely approve of a PvP arena
-Some of what ruins stuff is the economy, I think that since we ban griefing and killing we won't need protection stones. Thus removing some of the stress for getting a PS, and why would we? Given that we are protected by the rules.
-Chest locking could cost a symbolic sum, perhaps 1$.
-Rank limits for PS I have addressed. I think that your idea with keeping homes like they are now would be ok, given that you'd want the group to build a transportation network. (Which can be one of the goals)
-I really think we should remove all forms of adminshops. I remember having under 400$ and it being quite a lot on the PvE server
-Worldborder is fine given that we have a reason for it
-Remove mob rewards or reduce heavily, given that we "nerf economy".
-All players should have access to /co i for grief and creative killing countermeasure purposes
-Keeping automessage is fine, though I find it slightly annoying.
-Poor build removal clause. Not only dirt huts, also being allowed to move builds of value given inactiviy (Worldedit by admin) Though given that we decide upon a type of build and scout a location for it, we should not have to use this much I suppose.
What I purpose is also in context with the concept I suggested earlier, Sorry if this was unclear. I would also like to keep focused on voting if this is acceptable first and then fine tune things later.
-pusur
My vote is definitely a yes, I also don't think a restart is necessary and a PvP arena sounds pretty good, heck, that arena could be a first build-goal!
As for voting...
(http://oi63.tinypic.com/2qwzybm.jpg)
Quote from: Glenn on April 28, 2016, 04:48:06 PM
(http://oi63.tinypic.com/2qwzybm.jpg)
My first act as president will be to build a wall on the border of the desert biome to keep those illegal villagers out.
Unfortunately, it will cost a lot of money to protect the whole thing, so maybe darth could give me a small loan of a million dollars?
Quote from: pusur44017 on April 28, 2016, 11:17:51 AM
-Intentional grief = immediate ban with appeal on forums. intentional kill = 1 hour cool down period for the killer. (tempban)
Quote from: Butlerbandit on April 28, 2016, 02:10:18 PM
- PVP of any kind only allowed in designated areas.
-This icludes lava bucketing and other crafty means of murder. Minimum 24 hr tempban for violators. - Grief disallowed.
-Intentional grief means immediate ban with appeal on the forums
-2 month statute of limitations on when grief can be punished. If a build is that important, it should probably be checked or protected with a protection stone.
You are both suggesting that you are protected from grief and PVP by the rules. I don't think this is good approach for 2 reasons:
1. It requires a lot more staff effort and time. Enforcing rules means policing and babysitting. Staff will be required to be available to deal with infractions. This will be difficult to achieve on a lightly populated server such as this where staff are not always available or online at certain times of the day.
2. It leaves the door open for player conflict. Someone kills someone else, emotions run high, people argue, they complain to staff, staff have to diffuse a situation, maybe punish someone, yada yada yada... then someone ragequits. #drama
As the Grief Protection plugin that Krawkyz linked says - prevention is better than having to respond a problem. Plugins like PS, WorldGuard and GriefProtection should be used to prevent as much unwanted behavior as possible, in my opinion.
Most of you also seem to be suggesting that you keep the economy. 2 points against this also:
1. Money can lead to competitiveness. If reducing player conflict and competitiveness is one of the goals then removing the need for an economy would make sense to me.
2. Keeping the economy but nerfing the ability to make money creates an imbalance between the early adapter players and the late arrivals. The rich vs the poor. It is virtually impossible to try and redress the balance between people who made a lot of money early on and newbies who can't make money under the new system.
You could:
a) leave the economy completely untouched so that new players can earn easy money in the same way as existing players
b) nerf the economy now and let early players keep their riches (more tension and competitiveness)
c) nuke it completely and remove all money and all uses for it.
Hence I suggest the nuke approach and make protection stones (or whatever land claiming system) free to all.
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on those 2 issues
1. policing grief - vs - preventing grief with plugins
2. keeping easy economy (everyone rich) - vs - nerfing economy (early rich & noobs poor) - vs - nuking economy (everyone on $0 but land claims are free)
[/list]
Becuase the server is so little populated and we know each other I think we will respect each other enough to adhere by the rules. There were not a high level of drama due to grief and killing on the first PvE server to my recollection. That being said...
-I still believe grief prevention will be a nuisance since we are such a large group and this can easily be fixed with the low-level admins (Counts) being given access to rollback. This will also ensure a fairly large admin coverage close to 24h
-I opted out of worldwide PvP protection because of server resources. Having a PvP ban makes no difference on gameplay since we opt for PvE anyways, so it doesn't matter. The PvP arena is agreed upon and will be a first build goal.
-Chest locking is free.
Since no land claims, I suggest removing economy. This does not ban or remove players ability to trade, should new players join outside of the group. You can still trade items with diamonds, etc. But since nothing in the group except crafted armour and tools and enchantment books that you need more exp to apply is private, there will be no need for intra-group economy.
It seems nobody wants reset, I still want to note that I think this will give a more incorrect interpretation of the concept, but I'd rather have it tried out partially than not at all.
As for first grand builds ideas, I'm quite empty given that stuff like castles are already being built and spawn is one, but it has to include all elements of survival. In addition to things that make out build grand and luxurious like individual bedrooms, large lobby and unneeded things for survival, we need the regular survival things like Chest room, (Thrashs responsibility, no objections, if we ask nicely he might build a sorting machine) Mine, smelting area, nether portal (room?), potion brewing room and so on and on. We can build a skyscraper/high rise, sea base, underwater sea base, underground base, overground base, treehouse, etc etc, but it should fit the criteria above and have atleast one "private" good size room for each member of the group. and be as spectacular as we can manage.
-pusur
I am having a lot of anxiety about this post, because a lot of drama has started from me giving my reasons for not being that into survival, and I would like to put emphasis on the fact that I know it is my fault for not being on at the right time, etc.
Why is us building together a survival thing? Why is this something we aren't considering should be part of the creative server?
Anywho, I will still have no reason to play after all of this, what gimmick does our server have that others' don't? The only reason I play on this server is to play with you people, and even then I don't feel like I am part of anything. It just feels like a regular old run of the mill survival server. I feel like most of the suggestions are throw creative in and make build-offs in survival (over-exaggeration), and get rid of this and that. Barely any suggestions have provided something new, and interesting. Maybe that's just an excuse for not liking survival, hell if I know.
There is an added challenge with building a great build in survival, and for that, we need to be a large group that can't fracture apart. A build built while focusing on survival needs will be very different from how you might build something in creative. In creative we might add a kitchen, but that is completely unnecessary on survival. I'm not saying there won't be useless space, but still.
This is the gimmick of our server, I believe it's very different from other servers. This is not similar to a build off because:
-No creative mode
-No time limit
-No competing builds.
I actually do believe this is new, and I hope that this would provide any users who feel alienated by the current survival server setup with new energy to try and make this work. If it will work in the end, I don't know, but I would really like to try.
-pusur
Quote from: Drakon on April 29, 2016, 09:15:04 AM
what gimmick does our server have that others' don't? ... It just feels like a regular old run of the mill survival server.
I was going to raise the same point at the end of one of my previous posts, but deleted it cos it was already too long and people seemed to be already leaning towards a refined version of the current SMP server rather than anything new.
I think it would be worth considering a more heavily modded SMP server. Server side only mods, not ones that require modified clients.
It might be worth spending some time researching what's available and trying to come up with an idea. Avoid RPG story mods and things that could take weeks or months of preparation. They have been attempted in the past and they usually peter out over time without ever getting out of the early development stage.
Look for plugins that can be dropped in and configured in an hour or two but add something different. Something that affects the gameplay rather than just being cosmetic. I have no ideas for it myself, but that would be my advice for anyone who wants to try and get something different off the ground.
I really thought my idea would be a new gimmick we could try out. Since I have obviously failed to convey any of what I thought I was conveying, I'll withdraw after this.
As for plugins, there are none. It's nearly impossible to find any on Spigot because it's disorganized and a whole heap of them are paid. And on sponge, there is a total of 4 gameplay changing plugins, the only one being somewhat promising basically adds tekkit functionality, which I think is pointless but here you go (https://forums.spongepowered.org/t/craftbook-4/6893)
-pusur
Quote from: bren4q on April 29, 2016, 10:54:04 AM
I think it would be worth considering a more heavily modded SMP server. Server side only mods, not ones that require modified clients.
Throwing around ideas may help to brainstorm, but this will get us nowhere. So far this entire thread has done little, said little. People are proposing ideas and not actually discussing them.
I'm going to add a poll to this thread:
Should the SMP server be
Plugin-Oriented (Mods)
Vanilla-Oriented
From there it can be accurately determined what people want the server to be, rather than just a conglomeration of our own proposals.
Reading back over the topic the general consensus for change seems to be:
- Disallow griefing and PVP (either by rules or plugins)
Most other areas are unchanged
- Keep vanilla-oriented server
- Keep existing map
- Keep existing world border
- Keep chest locking
The opinions on the economy are not as clear. Some say remove, some say keep.
Remove - Kraw, Bren, Drakon, Pusur
Keep/Tweak - Butler, Sifitis
? - Everyone else
Removal of the economy seems like the best option, because it being active results in a lot of drama.
Quote from: pusur44017 on April 29, 2016, 07:39:23 AM
Since no land claims, I suggest removing economy.
What part of this makes you think I want to keep/tweak economy? Me and butler are discussing the same things, trying to get to a common ground, but now it seems absolutely NOTHING of what I thought I was doing, I am, so do you even read everything properly? I cannot understand how you reach some of the things you said here and I feel there is no use in posting here because a) I can't express myself in ANY way or b) you don't read properly what I write.
For me the poll does not reflect our different options well enough.
-pusur
Quote from: pusur44017 on April 30, 2016, 07:31:43 AM
do you even read everything properly?
Your posts are not very clear and they sometimes contradict themselves.
On page 1, you say there is no point removing money.
Quote from: pusur44017
perhaps a way to level this out is to not have any admin shops. That way all economy is based on the players. Removing the money is no point because you will just trade with items instead
On page 2, where you list your points for "To be clear this is my idea:" you don't mention removing economy.
On page 3, where you list your points for "My idea:" you don't mention removing economy.
Later on page 3, you say that chest locks will still cost money and reduce mob rewards, which means keeping an economy:
Quote from: pusur44017
-Chest locking could cost a symbolic sum, perhaps 1$.
-I really think we should remove all forms of adminshops. I remember having under 400$ and it being quite a lot on the PvE server
-Remove mob rewards or reduce heavily, given that we "nerf economy".
I admit I started skipping through the posts after that more quickly because I thought they would be repeating themselves, so I missed that one line where you changed your mind and said to remove the economy.
Anyway, that's a few more in favour of removing the economy.
Correct me if I'm wrong pusur, the main part of your idea for the server is big team/group builds and projects, is that correct?
That sounds like a perfectly fine idea to me, but I didn't include it in my summary because I don't think it can be controlled by the server. People will decide themselves if they want to do this or not. Its an idea for the community and how people play the game, but the server setup can't control this. Disallowing griefing and PVP will make it a lot easier and safer for people to work together, and most people agree this should be done.
If you want to encourage group building more, how do you propose to do this? If you plan on rewarding people (more land, titles, ranks, etc) then it gets very tricky in group builds. What if one person is lazy and does very little work? Should they get equally rewarded? How can you tell if someone worked hard or not? Its hard.
1. If there are no rewards for group builds => no server change needed, people organise themselves
2. If there are rewards for group builds => a lot more detail is needed on *how* this is managed in order to accept the idea
Anyways, you had asked me for my input, so that was my attempt to understand everything that had been posted and to try find a common ground. Sorry if I took up some parts wrong. Whatever you guys decide on will have no impact on me. I don't mean to rustle any jimmies by commenting.
This is a discussion there has to be developments and change of minds that is why they are contradictory. I am trying to develop something everybody can live with and think is fun. I get that posts become confusing because I fail to provide what their content is intended to address. In some posts, I don't mention the details like economy because I want feedback on whether or not people like this general idea.
Trading with money or trading with items is the same, and trading will not stop regardless. Which is why I said there is no point in removing the plugins which provide money management, but admin shops are the ruining factor. Perhaps there will still be ways economy will be ruining. So for me, you might as well remove it. Admin shops I want to have removed regardless.
My idea is that upon starting this, we first make a discussion with the members intending to play survival, making our goals. Then we open the survival server. Everyone who participated in the discussion and stating their intent to play with us has to do so until we reach the goals. There are no rewards for building, but as you are part of the group, you have committed to the goals and should see them through. It's just like any normal group, but with more challenge because you have to build a large, great build on survival.
-There is no way to control who does what, so there will be players who do more and players who do less. But the thing is that our skills are diversified. I have no trouble mining resources or working towards acquiring something, but put me in charge of making a design, and you're in for a crappy build.
I have no idea if this is something people want because we are discussing the details too much. I want to know if this is something a large enough number of people would commit to.
I did not say "you" as in "Bren", I said "you" as in all of you who read this. It's vital that everyone understands that this is a discussion and therefore there will be going back and fourth over minute details that seem like it's repeating itself. Therefore, read as closely as you can, if you don't understand something, ask. Bren, you still provide very useful insight and advice, but when I express something, and then I see that people think I stand for the opposite of what I expressed or someone makes other concerns about my idea that I already addressed, then I need to find out what is going on.
So please tell me, if you (those who read this post) would, given that we can find common ground in our discussion, likely commit to this general idea. If not, please tell me that as well.
-pusur
I'' throw in my two cents:
No map reset- we worked hard on what we have and there is no real point to scrapping it.
Vanilla orientation- if we want something more exotic, perhaps that can be worked out on a separate server.
Economy is a more complicated issue. Frankly, I haven't seen any of the alleged "drama" people keep talking about. Nobody is fighting over money, so I see no real reason to nuke it. If we decide to, though, I won't be devastated. I suggest some form of compensation for those who would be losing $20,000 or more- again, we worked hard for it.
@sifitis
Is your suggestion then, no change whatsoever?
What does "Vanilla orientation" mean in terms of changes, if any?
Personally, I'm fine with it staying the way it is, but I don't have any problems with a PVE focus if we decide to change. I don't like the idea of a plugin or mod driven game. I'd prefer to keep it as vanilla as possible, with a few plugins in place to keep things running (LWC for example).
I would highly suggest anyone who wants to put in their thoughts to the general type of server to please vote on the poll. I will close it tomorrow and disclose the results.
NOTE: The poll is not to show every option, merely to boil it down so we stop talking about moot issues.
it seems the majority want a vanilla-oriented server (6 to 3)
Updated poll for more specific decisions.
So for starters I have turned off PVP on the server for the time being. I've removed any mention of raiding and and pvp from the auto message. Kraw I'm going to need to redo the book you get at spawn. I've also installed dynamap so that I can fully see what we have going on with the world. It's rendering now and might take a while to finish.
Second, to just get feed back on changes. It seems that overall most people are in favor of loosing the economy. Personally I don't have a problem with that. It was just an addition at the time to give people more to do. On the original survival server it was primarily PVE with a few PVP arenas. I should be able to set this up with WorldGuard. On a previous iteration we experimented with the idea of protected vs wild zones, granted that was also rank based.
So my question is would you prefer arenas or anarchy regions?
darkzones :D
Sounds great Darth. The PvP areas should be the next poll (poke kraw). If we are removing the economy does that mean no money and only trading for diamonds? Or reset to zero and only acquire money from selling goods to players? Also on with this idea, we should sell the trading stalls at spawn to players for 5k maybe 1 per person to fill in those new blank spaces.
Quote from: Skitty on May 10, 2016, 04:33:46 PM
darkzones :D
Well maybe. Those haven't really worked out well for Ubisoft.
Bumping:
PvE seems to be the vote. (6 to 3)
Any Further Suggestions can be commented here to vote over.
For now, I suggest a total rule change of Survival to a PvE-oriented environment (i.e. griefing banned, PvP not allowed). The server, vanilla-oriented, should have as few plugins as necessary. Henceforth, I suggest we remove the economy system entirely, remove HorseCraftables (you can get that stuff from Villagers!), remove ProtectionStones and introduce GriefPrevention.
If Darth gives me the tellraw for the current Survival Rulebook, I can rewrite it [or he can rewrite it, doesn't matter].
Perhaps if the goal is to not create so much of an economy it would be best to keep HorseCraftables?
-pusur
Quote from: pusur44017 on July 01, 2016, 07:27:23 AM
Perhaps if the goal is to not create so much of an economy it would be best to keep HorseCraftables?
-pusur
Considering you can get all of these items (except horse armor) without scavenging dungeons:
Saddles can be found fishing; they are sold by Leatherworker Villagers
Nametags can be found fishing; they are sold by Cleric Villagers
If you are worried about HorseCraftables, then just remove the ability to get Saddles and Nametags from them. Horse armor being craftable is an alright addition to vanilla.
Quote from: Krawkyz on July 01, 2016, 03:40:35 PM
then just remove the ability to get Saddles and Nametags from them. Horse armor being craftable is an alright addition to vanilla.
Yeah alright.
-pusur
Reposting this here as well:
As the server moves into a time of peace and prosperity I've started to make changes to plugins. I've installed Grief Provention http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/grief-prevention/ (http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/grief-prevention/)
This has replaced Protection Stones and LWC. For the time being the old protection stone regions will remain.
I'll put a write up on how to use it at a future date. In the mean time browse over the plugin information.