Survival Server Proposal

[pusur44017]

My idea:
-Shed Auto Message (no need to have something telling newbies that they need to lock and protect since it's PvE), All economy plugins and PS
-Do we need worldborder? I'd like it gone.
-Still need lock plugins, but since this is a co-op, nobody can have a chest that is locked for any members in the group (We still need to have lock so no new players steal) The only things that are Private is armour and crafted tools and will have to be put in an enderchest. Since we have essentials, it's possible to check this.
-Need essentials and coreprotect.
-Given the possibilty for a very large build I suggest unlimited homes.
-Intentional grief = immediate ban with appeal on forums. intentional kill = 1 hour cool down period for the killer. (tempban)

We don't need to add anything in terms of plugins, the only rule we haven't had before is the one about what is private. This should not be any difficult to do. The goals I am talking about is something we agree about between ourselves, in a seperate thread before each world we being. (How long a world will last not established)

I have nothing against issuing an immediate PvE playstyle. May I suggest we vote about my idea? In general it seems quite a lot of you are positive about this and we should see if enough of you would like to try this so we can actually nail down something definitive. I will give you 2 days to vote over this, I will only count those who actually say they vote this or that. Not answering is not considered a no!

I vote yes

-pusur

[Krawkyz]

My vote in this case is a yes.

In response to Bren, here's the plugin list I posit:

Essentials, CoreProtect, CraftIRC, Multiverse, important plugins for server to run. Vault, PEX, WorldGuard, Backup, etc.

No ProtectionStones, instead use GriefPrevention (with config allowed using buttons/levers. Remove the anti-spam and anti-grief in wilderness.) /softmute is beautiful

Also, yes, a change might not cause anything. However, just because it won't change anything doesn't mean it is not necessary. I can, if you want, PM you a list of people who are active on the servers and don't play on survival because of the griefing nature of it.

[Butlerbandit]

My own suggested changes, slightly different from Pusur's;

Plugins Changes:

• Keep the current map (no reset)
• Turn off PVP except in select areas
             -Either set up an arena, or do like Runescape and have a "wilderness" area where PVP is allowed.
• Keep protection stones and chest locking (maybe rebalance price)
• Keep current rank limits on number of protection stones that a person can place
• Remove the buying feature at all shops so they can only be sold to.
             -This would make the economy purely focused towards obtaining protection stones and chest locking.
• Keep worldborder
             -The reason we have it is because all chunks within the border are pre-generated. Having people generate new land outside the border can cause some                      serious lag issues.
• Keep limits on number of homes the same, maybe even reduce slightly.
             -Transportation infrastructure could be one of the "large goals" everyone could work towards together.
• MAYBE- remove mob rewards
             -Might not be as necessary with shop rebalancing
• Give moderators necessary access to core protect
• Edit auto message to reflect changes.

Rule Changes;

• PVP of any kind only allowed in designated areas.
           -This icludes lava bucketing and other crafty means of murder. Minimum 24 hr tempban for violators.
• Grief disallowed.
           -Intentional grief means immediate ban with appeal on the forums
           -2 month statute of limitations on when grief can be punished. If a build is that important, it should probably be checked or protected with a protection stone.
           -Dirt hut removal clause: if a temporary looking build appears to have not been used for a considerable amount of time, and the owner cannot be reached,                    players may obtain moderator permission to remove it.
• Players may still have private land and chests with protection stones and lwc.

Summary:
       Set server to PVE, disallow grief while still letting players have private land and chests if they so desire. Remove the ability to buy from shops and focus economy purely towards protection stones and chests. Having protection stones and locks still cost money will help prevent them from being overused.

[pusur44017]

-What I'm afraid of with keeping the map is that we will have a lot of resources, and this will be a bit pointless. This is valid for all of us.
-I would absolutely approve of a PvP arena
-Some of what ruins stuff is the economy, I think that since we ban griefing and killing we won't need protection stones. Thus removing some of the stress for getting a PS, and why would we? Given that we are protected by the rules.
-Chest locking could cost a symbolic sum, perhaps 1$.
-Rank limits for PS I have addressed. I think that your idea with keeping homes like they are now would be ok, given that you'd want the group to build a transportation network. (Which can be one of the goals)
-I really think we should remove all forms of adminshops. I remember having under 400$ and it being quite a lot on the PvE server
-Worldborder is fine given that we have a reason for it
-Remove mob rewards or reduce heavily, given that we "nerf economy".
-All players should have access to /co i for grief and creative killing countermeasure purposes
-Keeping automessage is fine, though I find it slightly annoying.

-Poor build removal clause. Not only dirt huts, also being allowed to move builds of value given inactiviy (Worldedit by admin) Though given that we decide upon a type of build and scout a location for it, we should not have to use this much I suppose.

What I purpose is also in context with the concept I suggested earlier, Sorry if this was unclear. I would also like to keep focused on voting if this is acceptable first and then fine tune things later.

-pusur

[Glenn]

My vote is definitely a yes, I also don't think a restart is necessary and a PvP arena sounds pretty good, heck, that arena could be a first build-goal!

As for voting...

[Butlerbandit]

My first act as president will be to build a wall on the border of the desert biome to keep those illegal villagers out.
Unfortunately, it will cost a lot of money to protect the whole thing, so maybe darth could give me a small loan of a million dollars?

[bren4q]

-Intentional grief = immediate ban with appeal on forums. intentional kill = 1 hour cool down period for the killer. (tempban)

• PVP of any kind only allowed in designated areas.
           -This icludes lava bucketing and other crafty means of murder. Minimum 24 hr tempban for violators.
• Grief disallowed.
           -Intentional grief means immediate ban with appeal on the forums
           -2 month statute of limitations on when grief can be punished. If a build is that important, it should probably be checked or protected with a protection stone.
  

You are both suggesting that you are protected from grief and PVP by the rules. I don't think this is good approach for 2 reasons:

1. It requires a lot more staff effort and time. Enforcing rules means policing and babysitting. Staff will be required to be available to deal with infractions. This will be difficult to achieve on a lightly populated server such as this where staff are not always available or online at certain times of the day.

2. It leaves the door open for player conflict. Someone kills someone else, emotions run high, people argue, they complain to staff, staff have to diffuse a situation, maybe punish someone, yada yada yada... then someone ragequits. #drama

As the Grief Protection plugin that Krawkyz linked says - prevention is better than having to respond a problem. Plugins like PS, WorldGuard and GriefProtection should be used to prevent as much unwanted behavior as possible, in my opinion.


Most of you also seem to be suggesting that you keep the economy. 2 points against this also:

1. Money can lead to competitiveness. If reducing player conflict and competitiveness is one of the goals then removing the need for an economy would make sense to me.

2. Keeping the economy but nerfing the ability to make money creates an imbalance between the early adapter players and the late arrivals. The rich vs the poor. It is virtually impossible to try and redress the balance between people who made a lot of money early on and newbies who can't make money under the new system.
You could:
a) leave the economy completely untouched so that new players can earn easy money in the same way as existing players
b) nerf the economy now and let early players keep their riches (more tension and competitiveness)
c) nuke it completely and remove all money and all uses for it.

Hence I suggest the nuke approach and make protection stones (or whatever land claiming system) free to all.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on those 2 issues
1. policing grief - vs - preventing grief with plugins
2. keeping easy economy (everyone rich) - vs - nerfing economy (early rich & noobs poor) - vs - nuking economy (everyone on $0 but land claims are free)
[/list]

[pusur44017]

Becuase the server is so little populated and we know each other I think we will respect each other enough to adhere by the rules. There were not a high level of drama due to grief and killing on the first PvE server to my recollection. That being said...

-I still believe grief prevention will be a nuisance since we are such a large group and this can easily be fixed with the low-level admins (Counts) being given access to rollback. This will also ensure a fairly large admin coverage close to 24h
-I opted out of worldwide PvP protection because of server resources. Having a PvP ban makes no difference on gameplay since we opt for PvE anyways, so it doesn't matter. The PvP arena is agreed upon and will be a first build goal.
-Chest locking is free.

Since no land claims, I suggest removing economy. This does not ban or remove players ability to trade, should new players join outside of the group. You can still trade items with diamonds, etc. But since nothing in the group except crafted armour and tools and enchantment books that you need more exp to apply is private, there will be no need for intra-group economy.

It seems nobody wants reset, I still want to note that I think this will give a more incorrect interpretation of the concept, but I'd rather have it tried out partially than not at all.

As for first grand builds ideas, I'm quite empty given that stuff like castles are already being built and spawn is one, but it has to include all elements of survival. In addition to things that make out build grand and luxurious like individual bedrooms, large lobby and unneeded things for survival, we need the regular survival things like Chest room, (Thrashs responsibility, no objections, if we ask nicely he might build a sorting machine) Mine, smelting area, nether portal (room?), potion brewing room and so on and on. We can build a skyscraper/high rise, sea base, underwater sea base, underground base, overground base, treehouse, etc etc, but it should fit the criteria above and have atleast one "private" good size room for each member of the group. and be as spectacular as we can manage.

-pusur

[Drakon]

I am having a lot of anxiety about this post, because a lot of drama has started from me giving my reasons for not being that into survival, and I would like to put emphasis on the fact that I know it is my fault for not being on at the right time, etc.

Why is us building together a survival thing? Why is this something we aren't considering should be part of the creative server?

Anywho, I will still have no reason to play after all of this, what gimmick does our server have that others' don't? The only reason I play on this server is to play with you people, and even then I don't feel like I am part of anything. It just feels like a regular old run of the mill survival server. I feel like most of the suggestions are throw creative in and make build-offs in survival (over-exaggeration), and get rid of this and that.  Barely any suggestions have provided something new, and interesting. Maybe that's just an excuse for not liking survival, hell if I know.

[pusur44017]

There is an added challenge with building a great build in survival, and for that, we need to be a large group that can't fracture apart. A build built while focusing on survival needs will be very different from how you might build something in creative. In creative we might add a kitchen, but that is completely unnecessary on survival. I'm not saying there won't be useless space, but still.

This is the gimmick of our server, I believe it's very different from other servers. This is not similar to a build off because:
-No creative mode
-No time limit
-No competing builds.

I actually do believe this is new, and I hope that this would provide any users who feel alienated by the current survival server setup with new energy to try and make this work. If it will work in the end, I don't know, but I would really like to try.

-pusur

[bren4q]

what gimmick does our server have that others' don't? ... It just feels like a regular old run of the mill survival server.

I was going to raise the same point at the end of one of my previous posts, but deleted it cos it was already too long and people seemed to be already leaning towards a refined version of the current SMP server rather than anything new.

I think it would be worth considering a more heavily modded SMP server. Server side only mods, not ones that require modified clients.
It might be worth spending some time researching what's available and trying to come up with an idea. Avoid RPG story mods and things that could take weeks or months of preparation. They have been attempted in the past and they usually peter out over time without ever getting out of the early development stage.

Look for plugins that can be dropped in and configured in an hour or two but add something different. Something that affects the gameplay rather than just being cosmetic. I have no ideas for it myself, but that would be my advice for anyone who wants to try and get something different off the ground.

[pusur44017]

I really thought my idea would be a new gimmick we could try out. Since I have obviously failed to convey any of what I thought I was conveying, I'll withdraw after this.

As for plugins, there are none. It's nearly impossible to find any on Spigot because it's disorganized and a whole heap of them are paid. And on sponge, there is a total of 4 gameplay changing plugins, the only one being somewhat promising basically adds tekkit functionality, which I think is pointless but here you go

-pusur

[Krawkyz]

I think it would be worth considering a more heavily modded SMP server. Server side only mods, not ones that require modified clients.

Throwing around ideas may help to brainstorm, but this will get us nowhere. So far this entire thread has done little, said little. People are proposing ideas and not actually discussing them.

I'm going to add a poll to this thread:
Should the SMP server be
Plugin-Oriented (Mods)
Vanilla-Oriented

From there it can be accurately determined what people want the server to be, rather than just a conglomeration of our own proposals.

[bren4q]

Reading back over the topic the general consensus for change seems to be:
- Disallow griefing and PVP (either by rules or plugins)

Most other areas are unchanged
- Keep vanilla-oriented server
- Keep existing map
- Keep existing world border
- Keep chest locking

The opinions on the economy are not as clear. Some say remove, some say keep.
Remove - Kraw, Bren, Drakon, Pusur
Keep/Tweak - Butler, Sifitis
? - Everyone else

[Drakon]

Removal of the economy seems like the best option, because it being active results in a lot of drama.